Wednesday 28 August 2013

Skindred - Target / Brainkilla


When I started listening to Dub War, they'd long broken up. However, a short while later we heard news that the singer had started a new band called Skindred and were pretty keen to check them out. It was certainly the closest we'd get to new Dub War. These two songs appeared on the internet and we enjoyed them; Skindred were heavier than Dub War, but that worked for us. A bit later their debut album, Babylon, came out and I enjoyed it for a while.

A few months later, I was in Bristol for a university open day and found a very cool record shop in the alleyways of an underpass (I was in Bristol this Monday and I think found where it used to be - it was already closed the second time I visited Bristol). In there I found this copy of the first record Skindred put out, containing the two songs we'd listened to online. The 10" was limited to 300 copies, and they'd all gone by the time the news reached us, so I was pretty pleased to find it that day. Annoyingly, my fingerprints seem permanently smeared on the label. I must have had greasy hands that day.

Both Target and Brainkilla start with such a noise that I'm never sure I've got the record at the right speed. They're both catchy songs but, sadly, also the best Skindred songs I've heard (although they've released another three albums since Babylon, but I'm pretty sure I won't get much out of them now). If Dreams and Illusions was where Dub War was going, these two songs feel like a step back before Dub Warning.

I didn't know it when I started Dub War Week last week that on Saturday I'd end up going to see Skindred. My friend and I made a last-minute trip to Leeds Festival, and I thought it would be rude to not see Skindred. To my surprise, the set still contained a bunch of early songs I knew, and it was funny to see Benji on such a big stage - the times we saw Skindred back in the day he was confined to The Joiners and The Nexus in Southampton (a conversation the other day reminded me that after the Joiners show, we met Benji and he gave us all beers from the tour bus. Nice guy. None of us had a bottle opener though, and I remember prying mine open on a metal fence. I kept the bottle for years before deciding it was a silly thing to keep!). I can't say Skindred were the best band I saw on Saturday, and I wonder what I would have thought of them if I hadn't spent those years listening to Dub War, but it was nice to see them.

Format: 10", diecut sleeve
Tracks: 2
Cost: £3 second hand
Bought: Bristol
When: 05/02/03
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no




Sunday 25 August 2013

Various Artists - Earache:Nextgen98 Tour - The Singles


This is a funny one. I knew that one of the last records Dub War released was a 7" featuring a song I hadn't heard called Dreams and Illusions backed with a string version of Silencer. When I wrote about Wrong Side of Beautiful, I ranted and raved a lot about how much I loved Silencer. Anyone who's read this blog before will know that I'm also a sucker for classical instruments in rock music, so this 7" was something I very keenly wanted to hear. However, I never saw it come up on eBay, so after a while I did a bit more hunting. I went on the Earache website and noticed, to my great surprise, that they were still selling it seven years after it came out. Not only that, but they had the whole series of records it belonged to for less than a fiver (the text etched into the b-side of the Dub War 7" seeming very ironic - see below). I excitedly purchased.

A bit of history: in 1998 Earache put on a tour of five bands called the Nextgen98 Tour. Earache was more of a metal label, but I think they were trying to edge into the increasingly popular nu-metal scene. This wasn't only obvious from the music of the bands featured, but by the comical late-90's cover-art. Anyway, they put out a 7" by each band each week in December, with the tour starting the following January. The first record came with a box to keep them all in.

Despite the largely terrible music included, there are a lot of thing about this project that I like: the whole idea of releasing a series of 7"s is one that all record collectors love, but even more-so when you can collect them into a nice boxset. It's also a great way of encouraging people to actually buy the whole lot. One of the greatest things here is the way that the art on each sleeve makes up part of the final picture (check the pictures below). It's not quite as cool as Les Savy Fav's Inches project, but pre-dates it by a few years. It's a shame the picture isn't more interesting, but I love the idea. I only have one other 7" boxset, and I'm constantly disappointed by the plain white sleeves inside and the fact they didn't do something similar.

So on to the bands. Janus Stark have very little going for them, and Pulkas are mildly more interesting. Misery Loves Co were the only band other than Dub War who I'd heard before (possibly on a Kerrang! cd). They were slightly sludgier and heavier, and I enjoyed that. Even now the a-side is quite listenable. The b-side is a remix and really does little for me. Dub War's Dreams and Illusions sounds like where they would have gone had there been a third album; much like a lot of Wrong Side of Beautiful, it's a much smoother, softer affair - more raggae than ragga. The strings version of Silencer is suitably dramatic, but just strings and vocals. It's nice, not as good as the original. I like what it adds, but I think I'd have preferred a middle ground - strings with some guitars. Benji's vocals still soar towards the end and it just shows that his vocals can be backed by pretty much any genre. The final 7" is by Ultraviolence, who sound like a shit Prodigy. Their b-side is a cover of Sabbath's Paranoid, and it is dreadful. Truly terrible.

Despite the vast majority of the music on it, there are a lot of things I like about this boxset, and it was definitely worth the money for the Dub War record alone.

Format: five 7" boxset
Tracks: 10
Cost: £4.64 new
Bought: Earache Records website
When: 20/04/05
Colour: Black
Etching: see below
mp3s: no

Etchings:
Record 1, Side A: "Only four more to go"
Record 1, Side B: "Same channel next week is Pulkas"
Record 2, Side A: "Serious collector, eh?"
Record 2, Side B: "Don't miss Misery on Monday"
Record 3, Side A: "Over half way there now"
Record 3, Side B: "Next instalment ... Dub War"
Record 4, Side A: "Only one more to go"
Record 4, Side B: "It'll be worth stacks in years"
Record 5, Side A: "You've got the set"
Record 5, Side B: "Now see the show"




Dub War - Cry Dignity


Approaching the end of Dub War Week now. This is the 7" of Cry Dignity from Wrong Side of Beautiful. My friend Hugh had picked up a bunch of Dub War cd singles at a record fair at some point (CD1 and CD2 of Cry Dignity and one of the Million Dollar Love cds), but decided he'd prefer a little extra cash, so sold them to me. He'd also got this 7" at some time along the way too, and sold the four of them for a fiver. There were a scattering of interesting b-sides (including a very nice acoustic version of Cry Dignity and the jam-track, Glover's Weird, which appears here) and a bunch of remixes which all made it onto the remixes album.

Format: 7", two promotional postcards, numbered 1431/3000
Tracks: 2
Cost: £1.25 second hand
Bought: Hugh
When: 11/04/03
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no



Dub War - 4 Track


Here's another Dub War 12" EP, which came out some time before their debut Pain. This was the other record I bought at the same time as the split with Cowboy Killers. Again, it's probably far from essential - Respected and Over Now are the same as the album versions. The version of Nar-Say-a-Ting is different from the version that would end up on Pain, but not as excitingly different as Original Murder was to Mental. The dub version of Over Now is nice enough, but again nothing to write home about.

Being the mildly obsessive collector I was for a while, I also have the cd version, which has a fifth song (and is, fittingly, called 5 Track), a live version of Dub War. As with nearly all of my Dub War collection, that was an eBay find too.

Format: 12"
Tracks: 4
Cost: £7.50 second hand
Bought: eBay
When: 12/07/03
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no



Friday 23 August 2013

Dub War - Gorrit


I picked up this 12" single for £2 on eBay (including postage!). It was a whim purchase and far from essential - Gorrit and the remix both appear on the albums and the other b-side is a live version of another album track, Mad Zone. I imagine I bought it because for £2 it would be rude not to, I liked getting post, and I'd missed the chance to see Dub War live, so figured it would be good to hear a live recording, which it was. Gorrit is a classic Dub War song, and the remix (with its Pulp Fiction sample - "and you will know my name...") is enjoyable.

The only mildly interesting thing about this record is that I had it with me the second time I saw Skindred. For some reason I was taking it home from university (despite my record player being at university) and we were seeing Skindred in The Nexus in Southampton the night I arrived back in town, so I left all my stuff in my friend's car. The annoying thing was that we saw Benji after the gig and I could have got it signed, had I not left it in Nick's car. I'm not sure how receptive he would have been to signing a record of his old band though. Plus, I'm kinda on the fence about signed records, swinging towards not being that much of a fan, so it's not a huge loss.

Format: 12"
Tracks: 3
Cost: £2 secod hand
Bought: eBay
When: 21/11/04
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no



Thursday 22 August 2013

Cowboy Killers - Sweet


As I mentioned just now, I did briefly own two copies of Dub War's split with Cowboy Killers. A year after I'd bought my copy, another appeared on eBay. For a record that must have had a very small print run indeed, I was very surprised to see it again so soon. The difference with this auction was that they were throwing in a copy of Sweet by Cowboy Killers on 7" too. So amazed to see the record again, I put a bid in and decided to give the other copy to my friend Hugh. He was a Dub War fan too, and had been amused when I played him Cowboy Killers' cover of Deeply Dippy, so figured he'd enjoy it. I decided I'd keep the 7" myself. I had no plans on seeking out any of their other records, but I figured it would complement my Dub War split nicely.

This one-sided 7" is a promo from their album that was due to come out in February 1998 on T.J.'s Records. I've spent many a night in T.J.'s and had no idea they ever put out any records until I came to write about this 7". The sleeve is a pain white 7" with a folded piece of a4 paper inside it, so that the logo shows through the hole. Also inside is a small Christmas card that looks like, and probably was, drawn by a child. The b-side is etched with what I think says "I no I tall person Elvis 77". I suspect this was actually done by hand because it's barely legible, goes across the entire record and is different to what this one on Discogs claims to have. The song is nice enough, and strangely catchy. Again, think Dead Kennedys.

So not a Dub War record, but too closely related to not be included in Dub War week.


Format: 7", folded a4 insert, Christmas card
Tracks: 1
Cost: £2.50 second hand
Bought: eBay
When: 08/07/04
Colour: Black
Etching: Side B: "I no I tall person Elvis 77"
mp3s: no



Cowboy Killers + Dub War - Split


Today we have what is possibly the highlight of the Dub War collection, even though only half of it is Dub War, and both songs are on other records. This record is a one-sided, white label 12" split with another Welsh band from the 90's, Cowboy Killers. I basically know nothing about Cowboy Killers, except that when I moved to Cardiff, people still knew of them, provided you asked the right people.

I found this on eBay a few months after picking up a copy of Dub Warning. The bidding was mildly furious (all considering) but it ended on a perfectly reasonable £7.50 (including postage). The guy was also selling another Dub War record which I also got for £7.50. Some good eBaying indeed. It's worth mentioning that Dub War were the very reason I became addicted to eBay for a while. I'd been after a copy of their remix album Step Ta Dis and someone suggested looking on eBay. I did, and found a copy surprisingly easily. That success led me to seeking out loads of records on eBay and, for 5 or so years, I eBayed excessively (a time that ended by getting a job and not being at home to receive 12" packages in the post). 

Anyway, I'd never seen nor even heard of this record when that auction came up. The sleeve was a large factor in drawing me in; as you can see, the Dub War side is a hand-stamped logo and the Cowboy Killers side is written in glitter. Of course at that point I had no idea how annoying a glitter record sleeve would be, and this record has lived inside two layers of plastic sleeve since I received it - I don't want loose glitter all over my other records. I like to think that somewhere in Newport in the mid-90's Dub War and Cowboy Killers sat down in a room and hand-made their own records. They were The Arteries of their scene, but 15 years earlier. It might not have gone down that way, but I like the idea. The track-listing is also stamped on each side.

Cowboy Killers offer an original, Anorak Man, and a dubious cover of Right Said Fred's Deeply Dippy. That song came out in 1992, so I'm wondering if it was as strange a cover then as it is now. Imagine Dead Kennedys covering Deeply Dippy, and you have a pretty good description of both songs. Dub War offer the same recording of Dub War as on Dub Warning, as well as a version of Mental that sits somewhere between the earlier incarnation, Original Murder on Dub Warning, and the final version that would appear on Pain. The quality isn't as good as either, but it's nice hearing a bit of both choruses being used at the same time. A great find either way.

As it happens, this wasn't the only copy of this record I'd own either, but more on that in the next post...

Format: one-sided 12", hand-stamped/glittered sleeve
Tracks: 4
Cost: £7.50 second hand
Bought: eBay
When: 12/07/03
Colour: Black
Etching: Side A: "Simon - the exchange"
mp3s: no



Wednesday 21 August 2013

Dub War - Dub Warning


Now we start to get into the more interesting Dub War records! Possibly most interestingly, this isn't the first copy of Dub Warning I've owned either. You may remember from my previous two Dub War posts that my friend Tom introduced my friends and me to Dub War. We'd played the two albums (and the remixes) endlessly but hadn't realised there was a scattering of other records they'd put out. Well, back in the day I used to go record shopping in the second-hands of Bournemouth and Boscombe fairly regularly, a habit that fleshed out parts of my record collection very cheaply. There were certain letters of the alphabet I'd go to first (which was pointless because I'd always look through them all eventually), and "D" was one of them. I hoped to pick up the Dub War LPs at very best. One day, I was amazed to finally see the name "Dub War" on a record, even more-so because it was a Dub War record I'd never heard of. I was so surprised I spent ages looking at it just to make sure it wasn't some other band called Dub War.

I knew that Tom's birthday was coming up and, at that time, he was way more obsessive about Dub War than I was, so I decided to give it to him for his birthday. When I was a kid I was always baffled by my parents saying Christmas was more fun for seeing how happy their presents made us, and I never really got that until that day. I knew Tom was going to be over the moon. He'd not long bought a turntable too, so the fact it was on vinyl was all the better. I was so excited about this present that I stopped in the first phone-box I could find to phone our friend Nick and tell him about it (an actual phone-box! This was in the days before mobile phones and phone-boxes basically being toilets). Anyway, Tom's birthday soon came round and he thought it was excellent, so I was pleased.

A year or two passed, and a similar feeling of stumbling across a Dub War record in a second-hand store occurred, but this time I instantly recognised the sleeve (in the same Soho record shop where I bought Therapy?'s Babyteeth). It was a good find, because I'd come to want a copy of Dub Warning of my own (and this one was in even better condition than Tom's).

Dub Warning is a nice little record. The opener, Original Murder, went on to become Mental on Pain, but with some slight changes ("We don't want no" rather than "Mental, it's really mental" in the chorus). Crack is an unintentionally amusing song about the dangers of smoking crack ("Don't smoke crack / It's gonna make you whack"). The highlight though must be Dub War where Benji's vocals get to soar in a way they hadn't yet. (Also, I only just noticed the Blade Runner sample at the start of Words of Warning.) The cover is a picture of the air-raid siren that Dub War (and, later, Skindred) used at the start of their shows. All in all, a pretty excellent find, especially considering I had to find it twice!

Format: 12", picture sleeve
Tracks: 6
Cost: £4 second hand
Bought: Soho
When: 09/04/03
Colour: Black
Etching: Side A: "Jeff was ere" Side B: "Dange is ere"
mp3s: no




Tuesday 20 August 2013

Dub War - Wrong Side of Beautiful


Continuing with Dub War Week, today we have their second and final proper LP, Wrong Side of Beautiful. For years this was my favourite of the two, but both were so full of hits it's hard to make such a call. The thing that always pushed me towards Wrong Side of Beautiful was Silencer, which I genuinely considered my Favourite Song for quite a long time.

I mentioned yesterday the fact that my friends and I spent hours listening to Dub War at my friend Tom's house when we were teenagers, and how the remix album Step Ta Dis opened us up to a lot of genres. I distinctly remember listening to the remix of Silencer before heading out into town one evening. I couldn't get that song out of my head all night. A short while later I picked up a copy of Wrong Side of Beautiful on cd, and Silencer made it onto every mixtape I made for a while. I love the way Benji's vocals that gradually creep up in a muted scream, all backed to gentle acoustic guitars and violins. I still love that song. My desire to hear Silencer on vinyl lead me to seek out Wrong Side of Beautiful on vinyl, and I found a copy on eBay a few weeks after getting Pain on LP.

The rest of the album has some huge Dub War moments too, including the relatively big singles that were Enemy Maker, Million Dollar Love and Cry Dignity. Can't Stop was always a favourite too (for the way that chorus breaks). One Chill was pretty excellent too, although the Aphrodite remix was far more popular with my friends (there's a moment when the bass drops and wobbles that's just incredible. I don't know much about drum 'n' bass, but that remix was great). The smooth singing-vocals that we only heard occasionally on Pain appear far more often here, which I'm a big fan of; Silencer and One Chill would have sounded very out of place on Pain, but here they fit in perfectly.

Format: 12"
Tracks: 14
Cost: £6.80 second hand
Bought: eBay
When: 27/11/03
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no



Monday 19 August 2013

Dub War - Pain


It's Dub War Week on These LPs! For those who aren't familiar with Dub War, they were one of the finest bands to come out of Newport although, if this is the first time you've ever heard of them, you may not believe me. This record, their debut, came out in 1995 and, whilst I still think it's pretty awesome, I can see how without the fond memories I have of it, Pain might sound a bit dated. Not to mention that nu-metal really ruined the ragga-metal scene for everyone.

I first heard Dub War when I was 16. I can't remember the date, but the location was definitely my friend Tom's house. Long before we were old enough to go to the pub, we'd spend Friday nights sat in Tom's room listening to records and drinking beers if we'd been able to get any. The biggest discovery in that time was Dub War. Tom watched a lot of skateboarding and BMX videos and one of them at some point contained a Dub War song. I'm pretty sure it was Strike It, but that doesn't matter; Tom sought out their albums and we all got into them. I particularly remember listening to their remix album Step Ta Dis and hearing genres that I'd never usually let pass my ears. It was a pretty cool experience.

I can't imagine a better time to first hear Dub War than being a teenager at the turn of the millennium. Dub War were fresh and exciting, despite this album already being five years. I'd never really listened to much ragga/reggae (it'd be two years until I finally heard Bad Brains), but the metal Dub War were mixing it with was reminiscent of the other British metal bands we were into, like Pitchshifter and Therapy? Most of all, we were too young to ever think it was cliché, so it never was.

Not content with copying Tom's cds, I picked up Dub War's albums myself and found a copy of Pain on cd (along with a bonus cd called Extra Pain, and someone's ticket stub from when Dub War played with Skunk Anansie) in the market in Lancaster. I'd been up there for the university's open day and had enough time to find a second-hand record stall in the market before the day was out. I think finding Pain (along with the 12" of the Manic's Roses in the Hospital, and this Jane's Addiction picture disc) helped solidify my choice of Lancaster University, although the record stall had sadly closed by the time I actually got there. A year and a half later I found this copy of the LP (minus the sticker sheet) on eBay for a reasonable £7.53 (I often add an extra 3p to have the edge over other bidders - I can't count how many times that's worked in my favour!).

Back in April this year, I was out and the sun was shinning and Pain came up on my mp3 player. I hadn't listened to it for years at this point, but I found myself still loving it, so much so I even text my friend in excitement. The album is packed with classics, like Nar Say a TingStrike It, Respected and Gorrit. My favourite might well be the title-track though, for how huge the chorus sound when Benji properly sings. In fact, the whole middle section of the album is incredible. And the closer Over Now is huge. Good times.

Anyway, stay tuned this week for more Dub War thoughts and stories.

Format: 12"
Tracks: 12
Cost: £7.53 second-hand
Bought: eBay
When: 06/11/03
Colour: Black
Etching: Side A: "Stubbs!...." Side B: "...Keep your mouth shut"
mp3s: no



Thursday 15 August 2013

Hot Water Music - Caution


Caution was the first Hot Water Music album I bought, but the story of how I got into HWM really goes back to the story of how my friend Hugh got into HWM, so this first paragraph is about him. Hugh bought Kerrang! magazine nearly every week for at least three years. The great thing about that was that it meant I didn't have to (unless the occasional free cd looked good) because he'd bring it into school or college, and we'd all read it throughout the day. The routine was to turn straight to the gig listings (it's funny to think about the old days, before I had the internet set up to tell me these things), then the reviews, then the articles. Anyway, sometime in 2001, they gave the new Hot Water Music album, A Flight and a Crash, five K's (the highest score, for those not familiar) Something in the review must have appealed to Hugh, because he bought it on that alone (and it probably took some effort to find; I don't remember our local MVC having a Hot Water Music section).

He became a big fan, and one afternoon in Punker Bunker I decided to check them out for myself. I can't remember if he'd even played me any at this point, but for £9 I was willing to chance it. I asked him which of the LPs they had in stock was the best place to start and he said Caution. And that's how this record ended up in my collection (for those interested, it's from the huge first pressing of black vinyl, which is shame given the crazy colours it's been printed on since). It was definitely a grower - I don't remember being blown away the first time I played it, but I'm a big fan now. Depending on my mood, my favourite HWM record moves between A Flight and a Crash, Caution and Fuel For the Hate Game (the latter always feels so different - it's like HWM tried to write the heaviest album they had in them). So many of their biggest songs are on Caution and it has some huge choruses. Highlights are numerous, but Remedy, Trusty Chords, The Sense and Wayfarer are all incredible.

All this brings me to problem I have with HWM (which isn't a fault of theirs, but of mine) is that I want to sing along to these huge choruses, but I have no idea what Chuck and Chris are singing half the time. I've sat down with the lyrics sheet and it's barely even possible to keep up. Those guys squeeze a lot of lyrics in. I've seen HWM three times now and each time I've come away wishing I'd been able to sing along. Each time I've gone home and tried to figure what they're saying, but it never sticks. The layered vocals at the end of The Sense are excellent, but I have no idea how they relate to the words written in the sleeve. I've just about managed the chorus to Trusty Chords, but that's barely scratching the surface.

Anyway, HWM music have had a fairly huge impact on my life in varying ways. Half of the bands we saw regularly in Wales wanted to sound like HWM (with varying degrees of success) and a year after I moved to London, I travelled all the way back to Wales to see HWM play in Newport with all my friends. And that's not even mentioning the fact that I may never have heard Chuck Ragan's solo records if I hadn't first heard HWM.

I don't know what that Kerrang! review said to convince Hugh to check it out, but I'm glad he did.

Format: 12", 16"x12" insert
Tracks: 12
Cost: £9 new
Bought: Punker Bunker, Brighton
When: 16/09/06
Colour: Black
Etching: Side A: "...is a word that I can't understand" Side B: "One hundred records since finding the rhythms...can you believe it?!?"
mp3s: no




Wednesday 7 August 2013

Bonnie 'Prince' Billy - I See a Darkness


I See a Darkness is one of the darkest albums I own, if not the darkest. And I mean that in a good way - it's also one of my all-time favourites. It says a lot about an album that even when Johnny Cash covered the title-track on his death-bed, he couldn't even come near how dark the original is.

One of the things I love most about I See a Darkness is that it was by complete chance that it became the first Bonnie 'Prince' Billy album I heard/bought. I'd heard one of his songs, thought it was nice and picked up the Cold and Wet 7" in my local HMV. Five days later I was in Brighton and wandered into Resident Records on the Lanes (I had to check why I was there, but it was because I was going to see Peeping Tom in London that weekend and decided to visit my friends at uni in Brighton - after you've travelled from Lancaster, Brighton isn't that much further than London). I'd played my 7" at most a few times but decided then would be a good time to buy a Bonnie 'Prince' Billy album; they had a bunch to choose from and they were all between £7 and £10 (on cd).

This is where the brilliant chance happened, because I knew nothing about any of his albums (this was, of course, prior to the days of checking reviews on one's smartphone in the shop) and ended up choosing what is generally considered to be his finest work (a thought reinforced by the huge cheer that went up when he started to play I See a Darkness in Shepherd's Bush Empire a few years back). I've since bought a lot of his other albums under the various names William Oldham has worked, and none of them have been anywhere near as good. I'm missing a few still, but I wonder how things would have panned out had I bought the dubious Sings Palace's Greatest Hits first? I See a Darkness wasn't even the cheapest, but something about it drew me. The artwork and titles certainly give you a clue that it's not going to be an uplifting affair, and maybe I thought, having heard only three songs, that Will was the man to make an album with such a title live up to it's potential.

And does it! It's a wonderfully bleak album. The songs are perfectly minimal, but full when they need to be. My favourite, Nomadic Revery (All Around), builds up to be this huge song. Similarly, Madaleine Mary, comes in with a kick that you weren't expecting. Then, of course, there's the title track, Death to Everyone, and Black. There's not a bad moment in the 11 songs. I swear the cd is intentionally a few decibels quieter then most albums too - perhaps to make you turn the amp up higher than you ever normally would, and to make you listen in closer and more intently (although does rule its songs out when making mixtapes, sadly). I bought this LP only the other week (at the Independent Record Label Market), but it's been an album I've wanted on vinyl for years.

Format: 12", insert
Tracks: 11
Cost: £10 new
Bought: Independent Label Market
When: 13/07/13
Colour: Black
Etching: none
mp3s: no